Foreign Talents should serve NS?

[Astute33]

I saw on a few other threads discussing about Women serving NS... Why not talk about foreign "talents" who came to Singapore to earn a living.

Singaporeans serve NS to safeguard our Country against invasion. Foreign "talents" come to Singapore, enjoy the safe environment, take some jobs away from Singaporeans who spent 2yrs serving NS, sometimes also take away Singaporean women... :p

If war broke out and Singapore is in danger, I suppose these same foreign "talents" will probably be the first to run away.

So, should Foreign "talents" serve NS (maybe a shorter one) before they are allowed to come to work and live in Singapore?

Note that I am not against foreign talents, just a topic for some interesting discussions. ;)

[man.bear]

making them to do serve NS is one thing, instilling a sense of belonging so that they would defend the country in times of war.. now that would be the real challenge.

[leonhart9884]

:cool: If they serve NS, it also helps them to settle down better in SG. In a way, they can relate to local Singaporeans better also. So it is good=) If they would feel more for this country, likelyhood is that they'll stay and fight for the country also. Should anyone dare invade us... lol

[anep]

social studies, the chapter on venice. it teaches us not to rely on others to defend our own country. doing so may result in betrayal. something like that.

[Gerkeil]

Well, the foreign talents (PR or are with working permits) will not entitled to the benefits from our governemnt. We as Singaporeans enjoy certain benefits and subsidies from government unlike foreign talents. If the foreign decided that their new born babies to be a true Singaporean and wish to enjoy benefits and subsidies like us, they better jolly well serve the NS so that it is fair to the true Singaporeans.
As a true Singaporean, we have the duty to defend our country where our roots are and our fore father who built it.

[jokeemonkee]

The point is, most foreign talent are here in Singapore to come and make money. For example I have heard instances where a PR turned SIngaporeans going "home" which is the country that they originated from. As SIngaporeans, shouldn't they be regarding Singapore as their home already?

If people do not regard Singapore as their own home, how can we expect them to come and train and defend their own "home".

Therefore, we can't expect too much from foreign talents when it comes to serving in the NS. However, people who are born in Singapore, and grew up here, they have an obligation to come and stay and be ready to defened for the country in which they grew u[ and raised in.

[Singapour]

singapore army singaporeans
just like the young lions

play for ur country
win for ur country
defend ur home soil

XD

[Melbourne_Guy]

Please allow me to give a perspective from a non-Singaporean.

Coming from a western country such as Australia, I am of the firm belief that serving in the military should only ever be by choice. Nobody should every be forced into something that could one day claim their lives if a war broke out. Australia used to have compulsory national service, but thank God we finally saw sense and abolished it. Before you all reply and tell me how unpatriotic I am, it is no different from joining an agency such as the police force. Police officers ensure the safety of people within the country and do a fantastic job. But it is their choice to enter into such a potentially dangerous occupation, and they do so knowing full well what may one day happen as a result of their choice.

It is common knowledge that the only reason Singaporeans are forced into national service is because if they relied on volunteers, with their population size they would not have an army large enough to defend the country. Making friendships, bonding, etc, is all well and good, but they are only secondary reasons in an effort to put a positive spin on things.

Besides, Singapore is such a neutral country politically, why would anybody ever start a war with you? And you could always do what New Zealand did...form an alliance with a bigger, stronger country :)

Before you start claiming foreign talent should serve NS, why don't you turn your attention towards the female population who have been getting an easy ride for decades? Of course, they shouldn't serve in the front lines, but there are plenty of military occupations that do not involve physical or violent undertakings such as intelligence officers and tacticians to name but a few. I really can't see how in these days of equal opportunity, why women are still allowed to sit back and go shopping at Suntec City while their male counterparts are serving NS learning how to defend the country. That's a very backwards way of ensuring the safety of your country in these modern times.

I hope I haven't upset anybody by my comments, that was not my intention. I only wanted to offer a different perspective to the discussion.

[transplant]

but still the fact remains tt they are PR's and not a pure singaporean. lets say for exmaple the philipino or the south african in my camp is asked to go fight 4 s'pore during war time. if i were them, i would go back to my own country. i don't see why i should shed my blood for a country i don't belong to.

so help to inculcate a sense of belonging in people like them. I know its easier said then done. but we singaporeans gotta try...afterall it is inevitable that foreign talents come to singapore. We could start by forging strong relationships with them. For thats one of the instances when they have a stake in this country. its emotions involved that keeps a person attached.

But of course there will be foreigners who will pass by, enjoy singapores riches and flee in times of need...:rolleyes:

but we still gotta try:D

[Gotterdammerung]

so help to inculcate a sense of But of course there will be foreigners who will pass by, enjoy singapores riches and flee in times of need...:rolleyes:


How about RICH Singaporeans or those aboard?? Rich SGs will Flee and those aboard will read 'bout the war in new york times. Demanding Foreign workers doing SG NS is the stupidest thing i ever heard. Why??
1. Ever saw 50years old apek NSman??
2. You will make them work else where leaving singapore with singaporean only. Many small companies will close down due to the high operation cost.
3. Singapore economy will collapse. >90% in construction and production line in are foreigners.
4. Your breeding military intelligents for OSAMA.

[Melbourne_Guy]

2. You will make them work else where leaving singapore with singaporean only. Many small companies will close down due to the high operation cost.

This is true. Introduce NS for foreign workers and you won't have any more foreign workers. They will either stay in their own countries or choose a different country to work in.

[transplant]

Demanding Foreign workers doing SG NS is the stupidest thing i ever heard.

Hey all,....actually i din exactly demand that foreign workers serve SG NS..my apologies for not being clearer:o ....(p.o.i currently as far as i know, the governments ruling is that "2nd generation PR's need to serve NS"...by that i guess they mean PR's who are still of age)

[Chinesegirl]

:cool: If they serve NS, it also helps them to settle down better in SG. In a way, they can relate to local Singaporeans better also. So it is good=) If they would feel more for this country, likelyhood is that they'll stay and fight for the country also. Should anyone dare invade us... lol

True... also...serving NS is the best way to get into our culture....singlish...swearing....eating habits....skiving...etc...etc... :D

[transplant]

The PRs would have made enough money by the time their offspring reaches 18 yrs of age..and then they can decided wther to serve or not.

yup...tats true in many cases...but im a singapore PR myself. i've been in the education system for 10 yrs now...at first i din wanna serve NS...but now im willing...my parents accept that....i feel more and more attached to singapore now then before. i willl willingly fight for singapore...cos i have a stake in this country...all the relationships forged make it worthwhile...

but there is an instance whereby i cannot say im willing to fight for singapore...my second home...no matter how unlikely...if singapore does clash with my home country...its not in south-east asia btw...i dunno who's side i will take...but i guess...it will most likely be my country of origin...its my first home afterall:)

[iamblessed3007]

Coming from a western country such as Australia, I am of the firm belief that serving in the military should only ever be by choice. Nobody should every be forced into something that could one day claim their lives if a war broke out. Australia used to have compulsory national service, but thank God we finally saw sense and abolished it. Before you all reply and tell me how unpatriotic I am, it is no different from joining an agency such as the police force. Police officers ensure the safety of people within the country and do a fantastic job. But it is their choice to enter into such a potentially dangerous occupation, and they do so knowing full well what may one day happen as a result of their choice.

It is common knowledge that the only reason Singaporeans are forced into national service is because if they relied on volunteers, with their population size they would not have an army large enough to defend the country. Making friendships, bonding, etc, is all well and good, but they are only secondary reasons in an effort to put a positive spin on things.

Before you start claiming foreign talent should serve NS, why don't you turn your attention towards the female population who have been getting an easy ride for decades? Of course, they shouldn't serve in the front lines, but there are plenty of military occupations that do not involve physical or violent undertakings such as intelligence officers and tacticians to name but a few. I really can't see how in these days of equal opportunity, why women are still allowed to sit back and go shopping at Suntec City while their male counterparts are serving NS learning how to defend the country. That's a very backwards way of ensuring the safety of your country in these modern times.

.Hello melbourne, listen up, we dun need you to tell us what we should or should not do, or worse, what is the RIGHT thing to do. Please take your pontification elsewhere.

Every country has unique circumstances that differ from one another. Pls don’t impose the circumstances of your country on ours. And it’s hardly the case that all “western” countries do not have compulsory conscription. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
Greece, Germany and Switzerland are examples of countries that HAVE compulsory conscription. In fact it's COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Switzerland has one of the best armies in the world. I'm surprised you don't have this "common knowledge".

I know you know nothing about government, politics or the military. But as someone who knows something, let me tell you besides the value of deterrence and protection, military might is integral to the power play of politics. The military prowess of SAF, or any other armed forces for that matter, is THE trump card in its political exchanges. Isnt it? Actually it’s common knowledge! How do you think the US has the big guns to boss the world around? Because of its big guns of course! Once again, i'm surprised that you didn't have this COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

You’re not as knowledgeable or well-informed as you think, so refrain from spouting jokes here like “it’s common knowledge blah blah” when all you say after that is rubbish!

MOSTLY CRUCIALLY, The MAIN POINT IS: Singapore’s circumstances are unique, and it’s surrounded by nations that have a predominantly different racial and religious mix from itself, exactly like Israel- a country with one of the best armed forces and also conscripts both its men and women.

Taiwan, which also has conscription has it for obvious reason. The countries that practise drafting do so because of sound reason.

Don’t come here and tell us what’s right and what to do. Typical ang moh bossing its “values” around.

Besides, Singapore is such a neutral country politically, why would anybody ever start a war with you? And you could always do what New Zealand did...form an alliance with a bigger, stronger country :).Pls watch what you say. What do YOU know about OUR history? I cannot believe how presumptuous anyone with zero knowledge of the subject matter he’s talking about can be until I saw what you wrote. Did you know that Singapore has engaged in real time combat both before and AFTER independence? Singapore was also under combat siege by one of our neighbours before in the 1960s. Very typical ang moh syndrome. Always assume that you know-it-all, that your way is the best and the CORRECT way and that you have the right to poke your nose into other people's business, and worse basically stomp in and impose what your beliefs and values on others!

Finally, I think turning the attention on women to serve NS is ridiculous, though not as ridiculous as your pompous “viewpoints” on what is the right thing to do with our country, esp when you have NO knowledge at all about what you’re talking abt. Not as if you’re someone writing a paper on our military and political operations. The only country in the world that mandates women to serve NS is Israel, compared to the MANY countries that now mandate their men to serve.

As “foreign talent”, many times we suspect the level of talent you have. Most foreigners now come here on local terms, and were not talent scouted to be here. They come here WITHOUT jobs, looking for one. As for the supposed benefits of citizenship, I’m a Singaporean by citizenship, yet besides the vote I have not enjoyed any benefits of the citizenship that are denied to PRs. I didn’t buy public housing because they instituted a low combined income ceiling cap that priced me out of this benefit, not to mention the even lower HDB grant for first time home buyers. Let’ see. Think the only benefit I’ll ever enjoy from my citizenship that PRs (HOPEFULLY) do not get is the baby bonus.

[eiaoojay]

dude, i think you misunderstood the aussie guy la...chill man.

[dawdleham]

Hi.. wow what a old thread to br brought out..

well.. no need to jump at melbourne throat for his post altho it is not totally accurate.

If i did not remember wrongly, the last time the group concluded that women should serve NS (wish i do not totally agree).. because FTs will be chased off by the such a new policy. Is this better for the country? what is the net benefit or cost?

:)

just a thot

[iamblessed3007]

dude, i think you misunderstood the aussie guy la...chill man.
There is no misunderstanding. I was merely replying head-on his allegations of how our country is run. He tells us how we should or should not be conscripting, using his limited to zero knowledge of Singapore, saying things with casualness like “Singapore is so neutral, WHO would ever go to war?” and “western countries do not have enforced military conscription” (something else he also IMAGINED)

[ChivalryOnLifeSupport]

There is no misunderstanding. I was merely replying head-on his allegations of how our country is run. He tells us how we should or should not be conscripting, using his limited to zero knowledge of Singapore, saying things with casualness like “Singapore is so neutral, WHO would ever go to war?” and “western countries do not have enforced military conscription” (something else he also IMAGINED)

Uh, so after bumping a thread that is more than a year old, do you think foreign talents should serve NS??.:rolleyes:

[iamblessed3007]

Yes;) :) :) :D ;) ;)

[EvilCicada]

I saw on a few other threads discussing about Women serving NS... Why not talk about foreign "talents" who came to Singapore to earn a living.

Singaporeans serve NS to safeguard our Country against invasion. Foreign "talents" come to Singapore, enjoy the safe environment, take some jobs away from Singaporeans who spent 2yrs serving NS, sometimes also take away Singaporean women... :p

If war broke out and Singapore is in danger, I suppose these same foreign "talents" will probably be the first to run away.

So, should Foreign "talents" serve NS (maybe a shorter one) before they are allowed to come to work and live in Singapore?

Note that I am not against foreign talents, just a topic for some interesting discussions. ;)

one big problem known as "National Security" will pop out

those that i hate are those who came here and study then dun wanna go back. if they learn they knowledge in sg, there is nothing foreign about their talent.

[frucisky]

No of course not. What the hell. Unless they bear a Singaporean passport they do not have full rights here.

[blindwatchmaker]

IMO nobody should be forced to serve NS.

If the government can't get enough people to volunteer for defense, then it's their own darn fault for alienating the populace or not providing enough (dis)incentives.

Forced loyalty creates traitors.

[minwei192]

IMO nobody should be forced to serve NS.

If the government can't get enough people to volunteer for defense, then it's their own darn fault for alienating the populace or not providing enough (dis)incentives.

Forced loyalty creates traitors.


are you a singaporean?

[minwei192]

they may be spys.. they can come to our army and go back to report to their government.
and what if A come from this A country which decided to attack us. why A help?
i think they rather spend two years in their country working then coming to serve NS..

i think we should not relied on them, instead i think we should train up rather the wasting time finding old threads :p

[blindwatchmaker]

are you a singaporean?

And what does that have to do with my opinions? :confused:

[shawnietlm]

And what does that have to do with my opinions? :confused:

You definitely sound like someone who'll raise both hands and be a traitor in order to survive when war comes.

Let me remind you something.

A. you surrender and become a POW to get tortured.

B. you surrender and enjoy while war's going on and be tortured to death later by people who survived and war's over.

[blindwatchmaker]

You definitely sound like someone who'll raise both hands and be a traitor in order to survive when war comes.

Let me remind you something.

A. you surrender and become a POW to get tortured.

B. you surrender and enjoy while war's going on and be tortured to death later by people who survived and war's over.


Did Lee Kuan Yew end up a POW in WW2? No. Did he collaborate with the japanese? Definitely. In war there's no dignity to speak of, only survival.

HE however did build Singapore...AFTER THE WAR.



Well, a precedent has already been set.

[shawnietlm]

Quoting yourself?

Hahaha. You do know that if you're in the courtroom, your personal point of views or testimonies are useless against your own case. In fact, your evidence of the predecessor is not even solid enough.

HE built Singapore after the war. See the difference was, he wasn't a traitor then. As in giving his fellow countrymen up and sabo-ing the anti-Japanese. He collaborated as a transcriber for the allies of the Japanese, without directly harming his own countrymen -- an educated man (which are rare then) who at that point in time, worked for what he believed in. We weren't exactly a happily independent country before or during the war if you haven't noticed. Most of our ancestors wanted to end the British colonial rule, some of us wanted to finish it and just become part of Japan or the New Rising Sun whatever the history said it was.

But now that he built it, and we're independent, it's our turn now to turn submission into loyalty and have some dignity for your nationality.

[blindwatchmaker]

Well, by collaborating with the japanese, he was certainly a traitor to British rule.

"Most of our ancestors wanted to end the British colonial rule," said you. How can you be sure that most of the current Singaporeans do not want an end to PAP rule?

Dignity? Where's the dignity to speak of when we're treated as human resources instead of individuals? Resources. To be exploited.

[shawnietlm]

Well, by collaborating with the japanese, he was certainly a traitor to British rule.

"Most of our ancestors wanted to end the British colonial rule," said you. How can you be sure that most of the current Singaporeans do not want an end to PAP rule?

Dignity? Where's the dignity to speak of when we're treated as human resources instead of individuals? Resources. To be exploited.

WHOA. Are you suggesting that you want to end PAP rule? That's a bold statement. If one day, you ever run a campaigne, good luck to you man. Hope you don't die too hard.

Singapore's a small country. If we haven't got natural resources, being citizens, we're PROUD to be brains and human resource. I hardly think it's exploitation. If you're so unhappy here in Singapore, migrate larh. Don't waste your time here if you're so ungrateful of the government and so pissed off at our Army.

[blindwatchmaker]

WHOA. Are you suggesting that you want to end PAP rule? That's a bold statement. If one day, you ever run a campaigne, good luck to you man. Hope you don't die too hard.

Singapore's a small country. If we haven't got natural resources, being citizens, we're PROUD to be brains and human resource. I hardly think it's exploitation. If you're so unhappy here in Singapore, migrate larh. Don't waste your time here if you're so ungrateful of the government and so pissed off at our Army.

You know, with people like you, it's a wonder why Singapore hasn't gone all Orwellian.

[Ponyboy]

I saw on a few other threads discussing about Women serving NS... Why not talk about foreign "talents" who came to Singapore to earn a living.

Singaporeans serve NS to safeguard our Country against invasion. Foreign "talents" come to Singapore, enjoy the safe environment, take some jobs away from Singaporeans who spent 2yrs serving NS, sometimes also take away Singaporean women... :p

If war broke out and Singapore is in danger, I suppose these same foreign "talents" will probably be the first to run away.

So, should Foreign "talents" serve NS (maybe a shorter one) before they are allowed to come to work and live in Singapore?

Note that I am not against foreign talents, just a topic for some interesting discussions. ;)

Let them serve lah full stop:eek:

[ChivalryOnLifeSupport]

I guess the problem with Foreign talents serving NS is that they know our military "secrets", and how our military functions. So it'll be a no for me.

[blitzonic]

Never mind blindwatchmaker. He's disaffected after doing mostly clerical work while righteously serving in a combat unit ~wink~

To Melbourne Guy -- No, I'm not offended with your post &, believe it or not, can surmise what made you say you did. Still, coming from one who's finished his NS & reservist obligations: your naďveté is obvious &, since you're able to say this on *paraphrasing Jack Nicholson* the back of the security both my kind & those in your own country provide, your hypocrisy as well ~lol~

Advanced apologies for taking the liberty of quoting you in a different order, for a more coherent response overall.

I am of the firm belief that serving in the military should only ever be by choice.
You mean a militia? I note your armed forces have a history of it, but to rebut categorically, trying naming one Asian govt. that organizes as much. Think about why it isn't popular then.

Australia used to have compulsory national service, but thank God we finally saw sense and abolished it.
Doesn't having recycled the scheme four(?) times in a century infer an unsettled issue for your country? It's also noteworthy that three of your attempts were ultimately foreign-motivated: to help the Allies in the two world wars, & to aid the USA in Vietnam. The NS abolition you allude to was a consequence of anti-war public opinion, enacted by a political opposition who rode the wave & was voted into power.

Before you all reply and tell me how unpatriotic I am, it is no different from joining an agency such as the police force.
Thematically, this verges with your point about "military by choice" &, together, they correspond to the home-defence role currently filled by voluntary reservists in your country.

Yet that doesn't mean a "forward defence" policy is untenable elsewhere, just cuz Australia's was discredited by what happened in Vietnam. S'pore's forward-defence military doctrine is now crucial to our self-preservation, & its operational integrity sustained by conscripts & reservists whose military liability is one of the longest in the world (22 years, or until age 40 for non-officers). Our old "poison shrimp" deterrent stratagem is no longer adequate in itself (& in that sense kinda the inverse of what Australia went through).

Besides, Singapore is such a neutral country politically, why would anybody ever start a war with you?
Simple. Go to a nearby tap & turn it on. S'pore can always tolerate our neighboring office-holders insulting us as a red dot, or inflaming us as "Chinese", or drop by nearby Johor to saber-rattle (okay, more like brandishing kris daggers). It's all part of playing to the crowd in their internal politics -- although, at the same time, having a well-trained force over this side to lower the fallout is also nice, isn't it?

Look, we have no quarrel with them but, given their communal politics, the possibility will always be there that some ultras may seize power & look belligerently southwards, if not blatantly cut off our water supply. If such a threat arises, you bet we'll preemptive it by annexing territory to secure the natural resource & to protect the island from long-range artillery. The other side of the Straits? No immediate danger (for quite a while too) since they lack the ports to house any invasion flotilla as well as the money/technology to point 500 ballistic missiles like what China's doing to Taiwan.

the only reason Singaporeans are forced into national service is because if they relied on volunteers, with their population size they would not have an army large enough to defend the country.
The bullied kid grows up differently from a sheltered one. Politically, S'pore was expected to fail or to crawl back to Malaysia (at their bidding) back in 1965; its vulnerability & uncertainty kinda like what Timor Leste's experiencing now. Militarily, Malaysia attempted to blowbeat independent S'pore in the early days; anecdotes of their personnel insisting on "escorting" LKY to the opening of the new Parliament, & refusing to decamp from the local barracks & forcing a local regiment to famously pull up stakes at Farrer Park, are there on record.

And you could always do what New Zealand did...form an alliance with a bigger, stronger country
There is/was: ANZUK, then FPDA which is still around. But, ultimately, the arrangement is such that S'pore (& Malaysia) are accountable for & to build up their own defence forces.

Coming from a western country such as Australia,
It's ironic you chose to describe it this way, instead of as an Oceanic country. A consequence of your military reorientation is that you now have a relatively-small armed forces (as compared to some Asian ones), but nonetheless enough to serve as a Big Brother in your part of the world. Plus, with East Timor resolved for now, a detente with Indonesia too.

S'pore, by contrast, must somehow maintain a force that is numerically on par with its neighbors', as part of the delicate hegemonic balance in this region. Say what you will about technology or conventional-vs.-counterinsurgency warfare, but modern battles are still fought at the division level.

As such, before helping to build citizen bonding & indoctrinate on nation building, the SAF must first & foremost be a fit & fighting force. That's the official line on why women & naturalised citizens aren't conscripted for duty (as yet). We don't want a force that's too big either. It serves no purpose to unnecessarily alarm our neighbors, & shall also be a massive strain on the annual budget.

there are plenty of military occupations that do not involve physical or violent undertakings such as intelligence officers and tacticians to name but a few.
Thing is, because of & after anticipating a declining birthrate, the Govt has restructured the SAF into a more compact force since the early '90s, or over 15 years ago now. Since then, an increasing number of non-combat work -- which could've been staffed by females & new IC holders -- have been outscored to the civilian side instead to free up personnel for other deployments. This success of this approach, along with the recent upgrading to a technology-reliant "3G Army", validated the vision. Proof? Look at the scale & quickness in which the Tsunami Task Force was mobilised & executed, out of the blue. Upon activation, they took about the same time to reach Sumatra as the US 7th Fleet did (from Hong Kong).

Will women & naturalised citizens be conscripted in the future? Who knows, things are always fluid. The current NS intakes are from the post-1987 "Have 3 or more" population policy, which was successful for about half a decade before local births fall below replacement levels again. The Govt's response was to boost population by aggressively attracting immigrants, topically Hong Kongers during pre-1997 but thereafter expanded to other countries. But the increase won't help the anticipated decline in NS intakes again, let's say from 2013 onwards. What then? *shrugs* No idea, but something will happen one way or another.

[blindwatchmaker]

Never mind blindwatchmaker. He's disaffected after doing mostly clerical work while righteously serving in a combat unit ~wink~


Hey, no personal attacks please! :mad: :mad: :mad: :p

By the way, I noticed that you are quite a bit biased against our northern neighbor. Sure their politicians may not be entirely innocent and blameless, but you must realise that realpolitik does not only happen north of the border. Much of what you hear of them from local media may not be all true.

[blitzonic]

Thanks. I'd thought of another point too but, since he didn't sound like he'd served, wasn't quite sure how it could've fit in.

Australia, unlike Singapore, isn't a republic. Instead, its political system is part-commonweath & part-federal (& yet with the British monarch as the head of state).

To single out only the federal part, & this isn't a slight at democracy (strictly speaking, not a form of govt) or anyone's patriotism BTW. While it's not quite like, say the Russian Federation version, I wonder if Aussie draftees will commit as fully to a central govt's orders any more than modern-day Russian peng would to theirs -- if they were sent overseas for a foreign adventure like the preceding Soviet conscripts were to Afghanistan.

I'm referring to those teenagers from the Outback (in Australia's case) or from the Balkans or Central Asia (under the USSR), living far away from the national bases of power & sometimes complicated by influential state govts & ethnic loyalties as well. The pull to comply may not be as strong. Maybe this is a factor in generating outright resistance as well, ultimately causing the Aussies to abolish NS.

[neustomper]

Hi all, I'm new here and happened to chance upon this topic almost right away. Caught my eye becos I had been thinking of this issue ie whether non-citizens shd be given the opportunity to defend SG.

Lately, I've been pondering abt this on a personal basis, that since i've been in SG since 2000, i've really started to feel a sense of belonging.. so why not pick up arms to defend Singapore from external threats, to preserve the lifelihood of its people when outside forces attempt to snatch it away from us? True, there are faults here but which country doesn't have such limitations? So on an overall basis, SG isn't too bad a place to live in. In fact, I can feel the heartfelt efforts the gov't have poured into making this country the best it can be.

My choice would be that yes, non-citizens should be offered the chance to serve NS. Well, at least those who have a Singaporean PR status. Perhaps there are psychological tests to determine the suitability of each before being allowed to be a part of Singapore's national security. I'd gladly submit to such tests, and if for some reason I fail them, then so be it.

Having made many alliances among classmates, colleagues, neighbours and even strangers (kind ones, like the cashiers at my neighbourhood NTUC!), I feel that I would gladly protect their way of life should there be a war. Not to mention my family and relatives who are here.

Then there's the issue when it comes to a conflict of interest, should the war-monger be one's home country (i use the word "war-monger" as I strongly do not believe that Singapore can ever be the aggressor). Well yeah, this IS a sensitive issue, but I'd still feel the same way, to protect Singapore, simply because I believe in fairness and justice. Of course I'd have family, friends and relatives in my home country but i doubt that they will be participating in any attacks. But should there be a couple of odd-balls among them who are willing to pick up a weapon or in any way be involved in the role of the aggressor, then they don't deserve any sympathy from me.

So.. will the gov't read this forum and share this idea among the top echelons of power?

One last thing, I sincerely hope that fellow stompers are kinder to each other and consider your words before laying siege on members like "Melbourne". An over-defensive posture as shown by harsh words indicate a sense of lowered self-esteem. There is no need for that. I have not encountered any of Singapore's political leaders sprout such words, because they have self-belief. This is why I have trust in Singapore, because the leaders have both complete confidence and competence.

[Notregistered]

Simple. Go to a nearby tap & turn it on. S'pore can always tolerate our neighboring office-holders insulting us as a red dot, or inflaming us as "Chinese", or drop by nearby Johor to saber-rattle (okay, more like brandishing kris daggers). It's all part of playing to the crowd in their internal politics -- although, at the same time, having a well-trained force over this side to lower the fallout is also nice, isn't it?

Look, we have no quarrel with them but, given their communal politics, the possibility will always be there that some ultras may seize power & look belligerently southwards, if not blatantly cut off our water supply. If such a threat arises, you bet we'll preemptive it by annexing territory to secure the natural resource & to protect the island from long-range artillery. The other side of the Straits? No immediate danger (for quite a while too) since they lack the ports to house any invasion flotilla as well as the money/technology to point 500 ballistic missiles like what China's doing to Taiwan.


The bullied kid grows up differently from a sheltered one. Politically, S'pore was expected to fail or to crawl back to Malaysia (at their bidding) back in 1965; its vulnerability & uncertainty kinda like what Timor Leste's experiencing now. Militarily, Malaysia attempted to blowbeat independent S'pore in the early days; anecdotes of their personnel insisting on "escorting" LKY to the opening of the new Parliament, & refusing to decamp from the local barracks & forcing a local regiment to famously pull up stakes at Farrer Park, are there on record.

It's ironic you chose to describe it this way, instead of as an Oceanic country. A consequence of your military reorientation is that you now have a relatively-small armed forces (as compared to some Asian ones), but nonetheless enough to serve as a Big Brother in your part of the world. Plus, with East Timor resolved for now, a detente with Indonesia too.

S'pore, by contrast, must somehow maintain a force that is numerically on par with its neighbors', as part of the delicate hegemonic balance in this region. Say what you will about technology or conventional-vs.-counterinsurgency warfare, but modern battles are still fought at the division level.



Hard for a country to profit from invading Singapore. You're looking at a country that has no natural resources, no real talents except maybe its people.

What Singapore has is a good infrastructure, stability as well as knowledge based industries (silicon, petroleum). That's why people want to invest here. If you attack Singapore, you're facing the fact that almost all the "talents" who are maintaining the economy of Singapore will be fighting you (and probably dying).

You're facing the fact that you're already robbing Singapore of its lifeblood (the people). If you succeed in capturing Singapore, what do you have? 4 million people minus those who died in war. You have to feed the population for a (long) while without any benefit to yourself.

Oh, maybe you can raid the treasury. There's lots of money there (if we believe what the PAP is saying).

Hey, I guess it is profitable for a foreign country to invade after all. But it all depends. How much foreign currency do we exactly have (left)? A few billion?

[blitzonic]

Hard for a country to profit from invading Singapore. You're looking at a country that has no natural resources,
Well, who would've expected both Britain & Argentina to travel so far away to fight over the wastelands that are the Falklands, but over their respective territorial claims? Also, if patriotic sentiments are allowed to surge unrestrained, it can LPPL back on one govt while bostered another's as this war showed.

You never know. There are 568 million people living in this region &, except for Thailand, the other 10 countries all attaining independence only after WWII: Indonesia (1945), Philippines (1946), Myanmar (1948), Laos (1949), Cambodia (1953), Vietnam (1954), Malaysia (federated in 1963), Singapore (1965), Brunei (1984) & Timor Leste (2002). Still very young, as nations.

[Notregistered]

Well, who would've expected both Britain & Argentina to travel so far away to fight over the wastelands that are the Falklands, but over their respective territorial claims? Also, if patriotic sentiments are allowed to surge unrestrained, it can LPPL back on one govt while bostered another's as this war showed.

You never know. There are 568 million people living in this region &, except for Thailand, the other 10 countries all attaining independence only after WWII: Indonesia (1945), Philippines (1946), Myanmar (1948), Laos (1949), Cambodia (1953), Vietnam (1954), Malaysia (federated in 1963), Singapore (1965), Brunei (1984) & Timor Leste (2002). Still very young, as nations.

I was too lazy to find out what you said in detail, so I went over to Wikipedia and scanned through the article. It seemed that at that time, Argentina wasn't doing too well so the dictator decided to divert attention by invading overseas. Typical distraction for domestic affairs.

True, I guess that sort of thing could happen in Singapore as well. Sukarno initated Konfrontasi to distract the Indonesians from the sh1t that was happening in the country at that time. And it is easy to find justifications for invading. (Which means I should have thought of this factor too).

But I don't envy us if we get invaded. I can just imagine what will happen. Most probably, the locals will get called up for the military, while the 1 million foreigners or so here will get sent back home. So the locals will get to suffer whatever happens here while the foreign talents get off and continue to live their lives. Thinking of this sort of thing makes me want to migrate.

[gibsonsoh_jt]

Please allow me to give a perspective from a non-Singaporean.

Coming from a western country such as Australia, I am of the firm belief that serving in the military should only ever be by choice. Nobody should every be forced into something that could one day claim their lives if a war broke out. Australia used to have compulsory national service, but thank God we finally saw sense and abolished it. Before you all reply and tell me how unpatriotic I am, it is no different from joining an agency such as the police force. Police officers ensure the safety of people within the country and do a fantastic job. But it is their choice to enter into such a potentially dangerous occupation, and they do so knowing full well what may one day happen as a result of their choice.

It is common knowledge that the only reason Singaporeans are forced into national service is because if they relied on volunteers, with their population size they would not have an army large enough to defend the country. Making friendships, bonding, etc, is all well and good, but they are only secondary reasons in an effort to put a positive spin on things.

Besides, Singapore is such a neutral country politically, why would anybody ever start a war with you? And you could always do what New Zealand did...form an alliance with a bigger, stronger country :)

Before you start claiming foreign talent should serve NS, why don't you turn your attention towards the female population who have been getting an easy ride for decades? Of course, they shouldn't serve in the front lines, but there are plenty of military occupations that do not involve physical or violent undertakings such as intelligence officers and tacticians to name but a few. I really can't see how in these days of equal opportunity, why women are still allowed to sit back and go shopping at Suntec City while their male counterparts are serving NS learning how to defend the country. That's a very backwards way of ensuring the safety of your country in these modern times.

I hope I haven't upset anybody by my comments, that was not my intention. I only wanted to offer a different perspective to the discussion.

i completely agree bro ..